GET RID OF SAVE OR DIE EFFECTS. GET RID OF ALL OF THEM. FOREVER. NO EXCEPTIONS.
His entire comment made me laugh.
I can't figure out how to provide a direct link, so here is the whole thing below:
OH and how did I forget.
GET RID OF SAVE OR DIE EFFECTS. GET RID OF ALL OF THEM. FOREVER. NO EXCEPTIONS.
I don't care if the Medusa is carrying vials that cure petrification. I don't care if you can look away and fight her with disadvantage to avoid the saving throw. It says in the Bestiary that you can't look away if she surprises you with the gaze, and then in the adventure it specifically tells you to surprise your players and force the SOD throw at them.
THAT. IS. AWFUL.
Get rid of save or die mechanics. If you absolutely must have them, then they MUST have a built-in avoidance mechanic like looking away from the Medusa. But it must be easy to to on the fly (nothing you have to prepare for in advance) and it must be 100%. None of this "if you're surprised it doesn't work" crap. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.
Medusa Petrification worked fine in 4e. Keep it that way.
I don't care if they're "flavorful" or they're "the spirit of D&D" or whatever the hell the Grognards call them. Save or Die mechanics are bad. On players they're just an excuse for the worst kind of power-gaming (and this is coming from someone who enjoys browsing CharOP), and on monsters they're an excuse for a bad or inexperienced DM to ruin everyone's days.
That kinda sad actually. It's obviously just a boardgame to him, an abstract like chess and from that perspective he has a point. The game he's playing is a long tedious grind and looses all his progress if he dies. Irrelevant that there are save or die effects in real life.
I hate to say it but I think this is what happens when you live in a Politically Correct society that believes in giving trophies to the losing side at the t-ball game.
Sometimes a low level character declares an attack, needs a 20 and puts the blade right through the dragon's eye. And sometimes the high level character gets fried in mid-air doing the same thing.
You want guaranteed? Then tend bar, be a farmer or a bar maid. You want adventure and riches? Then always plan on today being your last because one day it will be...
It's not the t-ball people who popularized the idea that there shouldn't be permanent defeat in D&D. It was TSR. I've got a classic module right here with a medusa, and it says that she will spare "one or two" adventurers and offer a vial of... wait for it... stone to flesh, in return for her freedom. The module is B2, by Gary Gygax.
Face it guys, early D&D is rife with this stuff. And it's for the same reason that games like Diablo have an optional hardcore mode. Because not everyone likes their difficulty level set to 11.
I like high stakes D&D and think its superior to the other ways of playing, but it's not the pure form of D&D that I'd like to think it is. It's one expression of it, and always has been.
Sorry burnedfx, I don't follow what you're saying. I haven't had much coffee today though, so it may be me.
If you're saying Weis & Hickman deserve the credit for a lot of the "you're dead, but there's a resurrection potion in the room" stuff, I don't agree.
There are plenty of modules that Gary had a hand in that suffer from it. My impression, growing up, was that Gary really liked to balance out the extreme game effects with roughly equivalent penalties.
Here's an example of that balance, off the top of my head: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordenkainen's_Fantastic_Adventure
IIRC, in that adventure, there's an iron golem or something that is unkillable. Of course, in the same room where you are likely to be attacked by it, there's a feather that is a super-effective weapon against it, but not a very good item otherwise.
If you're saying Weis & Hickman deserve the credit . . . No, that is not what I meant.
My mention of Weis & Hickman is who comes to my mind when someone is speaking of how "old school" plays and how "new school" plays. You can point the finger at both sides when it comes to play styles developed. I hope that is more clear.
Specifically, I was agreeing with your point about Gary.
The poor guy I quoted above blames "grognards" for the save or die "crap" when THE Grognard was the one who put the stone to flesh potions in medusa's inventory (as you already pointed out).
I got lost when he started talking about "power-gaming," but was overall amused by his remarks to the point that I did not believe he was being serious.
Reading his comments again, this part still kills me, "If you absolutely must have [save or die gaze effects], then they MUST have a built-in avoidance mechanic like looking away from the Medusa."
@ Cr0m-I think you missed the point. Go back and re-read the text:
GET RID OF SAVE OR DIE EFFECTS. GET RID OF ALL OF THEM. FOREVER. NO EXCEPTIONS.
The point is it is up to the DM what to place in THEIR game. This idea of player entitlement taken out to the extreme of building tank characters that should never die is BS. The DM ends up feeling like a trained organ grinder chimp.
So I think the best way to put it is:
GET RID OF WHINY ASS PLAYERS. GET RID OF ALL OF THEM. FOREVER. NO EXCEPTIONS.
I'm not really sure why there is such a huge argument over rules like this. 1e or 4e, it's still D&D and you take the rules you like, discard the ones you don't.
I was confused when I first got into OSR from playing 4e, because in the 4e campaign I was playing the PC's were dying left, right and centre. Even had a few TPK's, and level 3 was a rare sight.
@Anon 1e or 4e, it's still D&D . . . By name only. They are different games. This is a fact and not an argument. It does not matter to me which one you prefer.
I was confused . . . PC's were dying left, right . . .level 3 was a rare sight Now I am confused. In Jr. High my players would die in our Rifts game and a LOT in our Silent Mobius game. What were you confused about?
I only played three Encounters sessions, so I did not feel any "power creep." Maybe that just crops up in longer games(?) I definitely recall healing surges and an insane amount of hit points.
Ouch!
ReplyDeleteheh heh
GET RID OF SAVE OR DIE EFFECTS. GET RID OF ALL OF THEM. FOREVER. NO EXCEPTIONS.
ReplyDeleteHis entire comment made me laugh.
I can't figure out how to provide a direct link, so here is the whole thing below:
OH and how did I forget.
GET RID OF SAVE OR DIE EFFECTS. GET RID OF ALL OF THEM. FOREVER. NO EXCEPTIONS.
I don't care if the Medusa is carrying vials that cure petrification. I don't care if you can look away and fight her with disadvantage to avoid the saving throw. It says in the Bestiary that you can't look away if she surprises you with the gaze, and then in the adventure it specifically tells you to surprise your players and force the SOD throw at them.
THAT. IS. AWFUL.
Get rid of save or die mechanics. If you absolutely must have them, then they MUST have a built-in avoidance mechanic like looking away from the Medusa. But it must be easy to to on the fly (nothing you have to prepare for in advance) and it must be 100%. None of this "if you're surprised it doesn't work" crap. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.
Medusa Petrification worked fine in 4e. Keep it that way.
I don't care if they're "flavorful" or they're "the spirit of D&D" or whatever the hell the Grognards call them. Save or Die mechanics are bad. On players they're just an excuse for the worst kind of power-gaming (and this is coming from someone who enjoys browsing CharOP), and on monsters they're an excuse for a bad or inexperienced DM to ruin everyone's days.
Get rid of them.
That kinda sad actually. It's obviously just a boardgame to him, an abstract like chess and from that perspective he has a point. The game he's playing is a long tedious grind and looses all his progress if he dies. Irrelevant that there are save or die effects in real life.
ReplyDeleteSome sort of brilliant satire, I hope.
ReplyDeleteI thought so too!
Delete1. This guy is brilliant!
2. What else has he written?
3. Oh.
4. Ack!
5. I have to leave this site now.
I hate to say it but I think this is what happens when you live in a Politically Correct society that believes in giving trophies to the losing side at the t-ball game.
ReplyDeleteSometimes a low level character declares an attack, needs a 20 and puts the blade right through the dragon's eye. And sometimes the high level character gets fried in mid-air doing the same thing.
You want guaranteed? Then tend bar, be a farmer or a bar maid. You want adventure and riches? Then always plan on today being your last because one day it will be...
Play it like you live it
Live it like you play it
Because everything else is just vaudeville.
4e was Hasbro/WOTC's save or die. They rolled poorly.
ReplyDeleteIt's not the t-ball people who popularized the idea that there shouldn't be permanent defeat in D&D. It was TSR. I've got a classic module right here with a medusa, and it says that she will spare "one or two" adventurers and offer a vial of... wait for it... stone to flesh, in return for her freedom. The module is B2, by Gary Gygax.
ReplyDeleteFace it guys, early D&D is rife with this stuff. And it's for the same reason that games like Diablo have an optional hardcore mode. Because not everyone likes their difficulty level set to 11.
I like high stakes D&D and think its superior to the other ways of playing, but it's not the pure form of D&D that I'd like to think it is. It's one expression of it, and always has been.
@Cr0m
DeleteI always think of Weis & Hickman over Gygax.
Condensed, the save or die comment guy does not like the two droids in Star Trek, regardless of the universe he may not understand.
I truly thought he was being purposefully naive. I find it funny either way.
Sorry burnedfx, I don't follow what you're saying. I haven't had much coffee today though, so it may be me.
DeleteIf you're saying Weis & Hickman deserve the credit for a lot of the "you're dead, but there's a resurrection potion in the room" stuff, I don't agree.
There are plenty of modules that Gary had a hand in that suffer from it. My impression, growing up, was that Gary really liked to balance out the extreme game effects with roughly equivalent penalties.
Here's an example of that balance, off the top of my head:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordenkainen's_Fantastic_Adventure
IIRC, in that adventure, there's an iron golem or something that is unkillable. Of course, in the same room where you are likely to be attacked by it, there's a feather that is a super-effective weapon against it, but not a very good item otherwise.
This is classic Gygax!
penalties -> penalties or benefits
DeleteIf you're saying Weis & Hickman deserve the credit . . . No, that is not what I meant.
DeleteMy mention of Weis & Hickman is who comes to my mind when someone is speaking of how "old school" plays and how "new school" plays. You can point the finger at both sides when it comes to play styles developed. I hope that is more clear.
Specifically, I was agreeing with your point about Gary.
The poor guy I quoted above blames "grognards" for the save or die "crap" when THE Grognard was the one who put the stone to flesh potions in medusa's inventory (as you already pointed out).
I got lost when he started talking about "power-gaming," but was overall amused by his remarks to the point that I did not believe he was being serious.
Reading his comments again, this part still kills me, "If you absolutely must have [save or die gaze effects], then they MUST have a built-in avoidance mechanic like looking away from the Medusa."
Where is your funnybone, sir? =D!
@ Cr0m-I think you missed the point. Go back and re-read the text:
ReplyDeleteGET RID OF SAVE OR DIE EFFECTS. GET RID OF ALL OF THEM. FOREVER. NO EXCEPTIONS.
The point is it is up to the DM what to place in THEIR game. This idea of player entitlement taken out to the extreme of building tank characters that should never die is BS. The DM ends up feeling like a trained organ grinder chimp.
So I think the best way to put it is:
GET RID OF WHINY ASS PLAYERS. GET RID OF ALL OF THEM. FOREVER. NO EXCEPTIONS.
There...that's better :)
Lol!
ReplyDeleteI'm not really sure why there is such a huge argument over rules like this. 1e or 4e, it's still D&D and you take the rules you like, discard the ones you don't.
ReplyDeleteI was confused when I first got into OSR from playing 4e, because in the 4e campaign I was playing the PC's were dying left, right and centre. Even had a few TPK's, and level 3 was a rare sight.
@Anon 1e or 4e, it's still D&D . . . By name only. They are different games. This is a fact and not an argument. It does not matter to me which one you prefer.
ReplyDeleteI was confused . . . PC's were dying left, right . . .level 3 was a rare sight Now I am confused. In Jr. High my players would die in our Rifts game and a LOT in our Silent Mobius game. What were you confused about?
I got the impression that people thought 4e characters were too over powered (I may be wrong on that) and that it was hard to die in 4e.
DeleteAnd for the record, I prefer OSR, I hate the "sameness" of the 4e character classes.
I only played three Encounters sessions, so I did not feel any "power creep." Maybe that just crops up in longer games(?) I definitely recall healing surges and an insane amount of hit points.
DeleteThanks for explaining btw =]