Friday, April 6, 2012

Crowdsourcing Barrowmaze II

Sorry that my posting has slowed recently. All my extra time has been spent on Barrowmaze II. I've been working closely with artists and keying rooms. It's all very exciting. I've also been exploring alternative funding models. The success of James' Dwimmermount and other rpg projects at Kickstarter, and Raggi's project at Indiegogo, has me thinkIng this is the best way to go. I could afford extras that I simply couldn't include otherwise. So, I'd like to ask your opinion of crowdsourcing. Do you support projects at Kickstarter or Indiegogo (rpg or otherwise)? Also, if Barrowmaze II was crowsourced would you support it? What sort of perks would you like to see at the various funding levels? Also, have a great Easter!

33 comments:

  1. I'd definitely pitch in for Barrowmaze II. One thing to keep in mind: people get really mad if the associated perks end up costing *more* on the Kickstarter than they do once the thing is available through the usual channels.

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  2. Noted.

    What if the perks weren't available through regular channels?

    Say a poster map, bookmark, or embossed cover? Those might be cool, they would add to the price though, but definitely wouldn't be available through regular means.

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    1. I think that's a good idea: that's the sort of stuff that really seems to draw people in. A caveat: the extra stuff has to be worth it; I'm not sure an embossed cover or bookmark would do it. (Just speaking for myself on that; maybe other folks would go wild for it!)

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  3. I'd be in on a Kickstarter project as well.

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  4. I'm generally disinclined to contribute to Kickstarter projects; they kind of rub me the wrong way. But, I guess that it would depend on the sort of project and what sorts of things Kickstarter would allow one to do that couldn't done otherwise.

    What sorts of extras are you talking about for Barrowmaze II? I think that Barrowmaze was pretty much the perfect adventure module as it was, and I'm not sure how it could be improved upon.

    Kickstarter seems to becoming something of a fad and while there are some projects that probably couldn't get off the ground without pre-funding, others make no sense to me. Jeff Dee's Kickstarter project to re-do the art from Deities and Demigods is one that has me scratching my head. Why does he need money up front to draw pictures? I'm sure he can front the cost for drawing paper without public support. The Labyrinth Lord GM screen Kickstarter was another one that I just didn't understand the need for.

    As for contributor perks, I've yet to see any that interest me in the least, nor can I imagine any perks that would entice me to contribute.

    So, I guess I've become pretty cynical about the Kickstarter craze, though I suppose I could be convinced to support certain projects if there was a genuine need.

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    1. RE why an artist would use Kickstarter:
      The 'cost' in Jeff Dee's artwork is time, not paper and ink. So, if Jeff Dee works for a living and has a family or any interests outside re-drawing the DDG art, then every hour spent re-doing DDG art means he gets to spend less time doing something else (even if that something else is 'more sleep'). So, before embarking on a project, the artist might say, "This project is really only viable if I can end up with at least X amount of money after it is done." Kickstarter lets him know that if he feels that he needs at least X amount to justify doing that project, that he can get it.
      As an independent worker (artist), I have discovered there are a lot of projects that I CAN do that I wouldn't necessarily decide to do if ahead of time I found out how little money I would end up with as a measure of how many hours I would end up spending on it when I was done.
      I have mixed feelings about Kickstarter and don't think I would use it just because the way I work (things for me might change in process so what I promised people would not be what I ended up with, leading to unhappy investors), but I can see the utility. If you are one of the people who really WANTS Jeff Dee to recreate his past work, you can put your money where your mouth is and make it happen. If Jeff is going to spend an amount of time worth X on a project and only make a fraction of what he hoped to, I would understand why he might want to use a kickstarter to make sure the money was there before he committed. And everyone and his brother might say it was 'cool' for Jeff to redo the art, but if Jeff has bills to pay, he might need more than accolades and the praise of others. Makes sense to me.

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  5. Sean, I agree with most of your comments. I think there are examples where the level of entrepreneurship goes way overboard, but then I've wondered if that's just my taste poking through or not.

    I think it does have a place, but it needs to be done the right way and with obvious advantages for backers that make it worthwhile.

    I only threw out those as three off the cuff examples.

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    1. Oh, another reason for crowdsourcing would be to select a printer and binder of my choice and thus get away from Lightning Source. I'd like better paper and print quality. So that's a very practical, and yet important, reason why I'm considering crowdsourcing.

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    2. That makes sense. Are you planning to get away from POD and fund a print run?

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  6. With three sessions under our belts, we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of Barrowmaze. Never the less, I really look forward to purchasing the second installment.

    I've never participated in crowd sourcing and I wouldn't sign up for Kickstarter or the like to support any product.

    I have donated to projects/people via PayPal when I felt it was deserved (Dwarf Fortress, Red Letter Media, etc). I would be happy to put Barrowmaze II in that category.

    I'm sure I'm in the minority. Proof of that would be my disinterest in Dwimmermount.

    I would not want to discourage your use of Kickstarter etc. Especially since Dwimmermount received a ridiculously amount of money and I'd love to see you receive as much.

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    1. I'm with burnedfx, here. I'd be more inclined to donate money to a worthy project than to contribute to a kickstarter campaign. I haven't much interest in contributor perks; I just want to see great projects come to life, and Barrowmaze II certainly falls into this category.

      Likewise, I don't want to discourage you from crowd-sourcing, but I did want to give you an honest answer to the question. It's all too easy to say 'sure, I'll kick in,' and then fail to pony-up when the time comes. I've never contributed to kickstarter and probably never will, but I do hope that what ever route you decide to take works out well.

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    2. Totally understand.

      Also, keep in mind that rpgnow takes a 30% royalty on everything. That is a HUGE chunk especially when you are dealing with small-time projects.

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  7. Dwimmermount is a unique situation relative to the OSR. My aspirations are based just in my little corner of the world.

    Even at this early stage, I've already spent almost triple the money on art for Barrowmaze II, that I spent on Barrowmaze I. So something like crowdsourcing can allow me to do extras above and beyond. I'm trying to up my game (no pun intended) for BMII.

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  8. I think people are misunderstanding the purpose of crowd funding. It is not supposed to be a place to get a "better deal" on something. I fully expect retail copies of Kickstarter projects to be cheaper in the long run (that is, one pays more to be a supporter generally, but often also gets the end product before others). The point is not just to gather startup funds, but also to put a floor on the potential market. Sure, Jeff Dee does not startup funds for paper and pens, but his real asset is his time, and he needs to know whether there is enough interest to justify his work (assuming it is a completely commercial venture).

    I have backed 5 so far; 1 was for a friend, 3 were for products that I wanted to support (Dwimmermount, ACKS Player's Companion, and the LotFP modules), and the last was for a perk that I wanted. Many of these RPG book Kickstarters also allow backers to see drafts and offer feedback, giving the backer an ability to shape the end product that is not possible for someone who waits for the retail copy. For example, at least one of the classes in the ACKS Player's Companion was written by a backer in the ACKS forum.

    So, you could offer things like that in a potential Barrowmaze 2 crowdfunding. Maybe run some G+ games for backers and have their PC's dead corpses included in the text for others to find.

    :-)

    I think the project I backed just for the perk is interesting, because I backed a project that, though I think it is cool (random dungeon generator as a dungeon map poster), I have no use for. But one of the perks is a dungeon by Mike Mornard, which I am really interested in (and alone is worth the $17 contribution to me).

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    1. 100% agree.

      Oh and because of you I am now backing the Dungeon Generator poster, bah. I went with the $22 pledge so I could get the wandering monster poster as well.

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  9. As an aside my group includes google+ folks all the time (including Sean) so if you are interested send me an email. I will be happy to kill your PC :)

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  10. I also will contribute. You've proven the quality of your work with the first instalment, I have high hopes for the second!

    As far as extras go I'd like to see something useful done with the maps. Fold-outs have "wow" factor but they're not very suited to tabletop play. A Barrowmaze DM's screen with Poag art on the exterior and the new levels on the interior would be cool. In landscape format, naturally.

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  11. That would be cool, but the map wouldn't fit on a landscape screen.

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    1. Fair enough. Alternatives might include single page cardstock or laminate map inserts. Something durable that blends utility with cool aesthetics.

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  12. I'm in.

    I've been supporting projects on Kickstarter for a while and I've been happy so far. Sometimes I find perks I like and pledge more, but usually I'm around the first level that includes print and PDF ;)

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  13. I do see Kickstarter and the like as a bit of a fad (a lot of projects are a waste of time) but I also think it's useful for a hobby like ours where the market is limited.

    I have backed a few kickstarter projects. All of them are products I know I would buy on release, without waiting for reviews. The type of projects I have backed, all RPG books, could easily be published on Lulu or RPGnow so my pledge is not really to help with start-up funds or act as a donation. Like Brendan states I see them as a way to indicate the floor of the potential market more than anything. If that allows the designer to throw in some extra perks or even more of his heart and soul in to the project than he already has, well that's a bonus.

    Barrowmaze II is a project I would gladly support as I already know I will be buying it when it's released. I don't really care if the art is better (I thought the first book was just fine). Using a better printer and having better paper would be nice though. A fold-out map or something would be nice as well.

    Things like a bookmark or special covers are not as important to me as things that can actually enhance my experience at the table.

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  14. I'd back it. Mainly because BM II sounds as awesome as BM I and it would be great to see a more finished product on higher quality paper / with higher quality art. If all my PCs are going to die in BM II they may as well die in style.

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  15. That is how I have used Kickstarter and the like as well: as simple preorders. I'm usually not interested in the perks just as I usually don't have the time to watch all the extras on a DVD.

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    1. Pretty much the same here - I'm pledge what I think is a fair price for the item overall. If Barrowmaze II is up and the pledge level for the PDF is a fair price compared to what it'll retail for (same as or better than), I'll pledge. If I think it's more, I probably won't.

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  16. I haven't even finished reading Barrowmaze I yet (stupid Master's Degree), and I'd be a backer!

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  17. The pdf was priced at $6.66 mostly becuase I thought that was funny. If you notice the number 666, among other things, repeats throughtout. I could have sold it before but my plan was never to gouge people. It was never about that. It was just a cleaned-up homegame megadungeon, and to share what we do in my group with the OSR community. Having said that there isn't much hope of having the second one for the same price as the first. Costs have gone up - for reasons I'll discuss in due course. Needless to say I don't think people will be disappointed :)

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    1. Damn you ipad LOL: "before" should say "for more"

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  18. I've backed a lot of Kickstarters, usually with the simple motivation to see a thing exist, but sometimes also with the motive of getting a "preorder" perk sooner than I could through the eventual retail channel. Regardless, I see it as a way of determining whether there's a large enough market to justify production costs and time because it does set that floor of minimum return for the creator.

    I would definitely fund a crowd funding effort for Barrowmaze II (which reminds me that I've been meaning to order the print edition of Barrowmaze I now that it's available). It's worth noting that residents of Canada (which I seem to recall you are?) can't fund through Kickstarter due to some kind of banking issue. That's why Raggi is using Indiegogo and Maliszewski partnered with a US company for Dwimmermount's Kickstarter.

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  19. Yesh, Kickstarter is xenophobic I guess.

    I'd have to have an American host it for me to go with Kickstarter. It's more popular and well known than Indiegogo, although the latter is open to everybody.

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  20. I would definitely fund Barrowmaze II; however, because of financial and practical reasons, I'd do so for only a pdf.

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  21. I'd back it. Either Kickstarter or Indiegogo would be fine.

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